tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post7965976754893929063..comments2024-03-27T06:42:31.956+00:00Comments on Mark Brinkley (aka House 2.0): The Copenhagen BluesMark Brinkleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03473684038478246288noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-38284528714954594042010-01-16T16:30:48.008+00:002010-01-16T16:30:48.008+00:00I know comments have been dormant for a while but ...I know comments have been dormant for a while but this blog post and the subsequent comments have been churning around in my mind for a bit.<br /><br />I have however only just got round to reading Tim Jackson's report, very good, also a talk at the RCA<br /><br />http://bit.ly/4OF9PC<br /><br />Just ordered the book.<br /><br />We will need all the decoupling and efficiency measures we can Nick Granthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11949493936074643201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-75574594912332187712009-12-15T12:21:22.173+00:002009-12-15T12:21:22.173+00:00"Interesting that Mr Anonymous then turns int..."Interesting that Mr Anonymous then turns into Mr Angry and ends up swearing. That always seems to happen."<br /><br />Well it was in a response to a suggestion that would if enacted to the letter, completely halt any and all economic activity in the UK except for a few bio toilet roll companies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-44758720985521093202009-12-14T01:50:58.244+00:002009-12-14T01:50:58.244+00:00fostertom said...
"Valuable product may ind...fostertom said... <br /><br /><i>"Valuable product may indeed be greedy of resources, or it may use negligible resources, as in production of highly-valued computer programs, or anywhere in between."</i><br /><br />In many ways this comment illustrates just how easy it is to take for granted the machinery needed just to sustain our day-to-day westernised life.<br /><br />Compare the MikeChttp://www.energy-performance-certificates.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-12759599688146130022009-12-11T17:42:02.793+00:002009-12-11T17:42:02.793+00:00Hi Tom,
"But in the west, the 'doing mor...Hi Tom,<br /><br />"But in the west, the 'doing more' is increasingly decoupled from the 'with more', and every incentive encourages the 'with less'."<br /><br />One concept that we commonly come across is the rebound effect. For example, when we ask people what they're likely to do with the money they've saved when we've insulated their houses for Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10941207174792378631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-69751202032777668652009-12-11T15:36:17.491+00:002009-12-11T15:36:17.491+00:00Interesting that Mr Anonymous then turns into Mr A...Interesting that Mr Anonymous then turns into Mr Angry and ends up swearing. That always seems to happen.PhilClarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08410689123753693397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-23585074716465436922009-12-11T12:10:32.248+00:002009-12-11T12:10:32.248+00:00No, Mark, I've read for example Future Scenari...No, Mark, I've read for example Future Scenarios by David Holmgren.<br /><br />My mission is to take all the buildings of the world's temperate zones off fuel burning altogether, for heating and cooling. <br /><br />That's 35% out of the 80% demand reduction we need to find, to replace fossil-resource-mining and nuclear, with renewables. Is that enough 'heasdroom' for one man/Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06796325006077141917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-34612238502718678932009-12-11T09:15:17.678+00:002009-12-11T09:15:17.678+00:00"But in the west, the 'doing more' is..."But in the west, the 'doing more' is increasingly decoupled from the 'with more', and every incentive encourages the 'with less'."<br /><br />Tom, if that's what you think, fine, but I think you are making the same assumption as Ed Milliband. I.E. Business as usual is fine with just a little bit of techno-fix to green us up. "Feed-in-Tarrif here, boilerMark Brinkleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03473684038478246288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-49955650651248665612009-12-11T00:58:57.188+00:002009-12-11T00:58:57.188+00:00I think investment in technology is better than re...I think investment in technology is better than regulation. The gov't can sponsor or give tax breaks for things like zero-emission or low-emission vehicles. More people will buy and use something if it is not just green but also has a lower TCO.Ralph Doncasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00037504544742962130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-73037296425749266812009-12-10T22:18:34.378+00:002009-12-10T22:18:34.378+00:00Aha! you confirm my point!
When it comes to '...Aha! you confirm my point!<br /><br />When it comes to 'doing more with less', yes it's true that the 'doing more' still outweighs the 'with less' (plus the developing world is coming on with lots of old-fashioned 'doing more with more').<br /><br />But in the west, the 'doing more' is increasingly decoupled from the 'with more', and every Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06796325006077141917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-61916992787838881822009-12-10T20:24:18.562+00:002009-12-10T20:24:18.562+00:00But what about my main point - 'growth' do...But what about my main point - 'growth' doesn't inherently measure 'consumption of resources' <br /><br />In theory, you may be right, but in practice, economic growth is tied up with greater use of resources. <br /><br />Take mobile phones as an example. Today's mobile phone uses about 30% less resources than ones made 10 years ago. That's good news. The problems is Mark Brinkleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03473684038478246288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-67754457820277065722009-12-10T14:13:30.748+00:002009-12-10T14:13:30.748+00:00Mark, OK I exagerated, for effect - "confusin...Mark, OK I exagerated, for effect - "confusing economic activity with economic growth".<br /><br />But what about my main point - 'growth' doesn't inherently measure 'consumption of resources' - it's a money measure of 'value of finished product'.<br /><br />Valuable product may indeed be greedy of resources, or it may use negligible resources, as in Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06796325006077141917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-39996091790247634542009-12-10T10:11:45.992+00:002009-12-10T10:11:45.992+00:00"But in order to do so, every new activity sh..."But in order to do so, every new activity should be subject to a carbon test. If it doesn't reduce it, then it shouldn't be permitted."<br /><br />Utterly gobsmaked that you would say something so utterly ****Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-81889528155217889392009-12-09T18:01:18.380+00:002009-12-09T18:01:18.380+00:00"What does zero economic growth mean? It mean..."What does zero economic growth mean? It means no worn-out anything gets replaced, no obsolete inefficient anything gets modernised - because every time some item gets paid for, that's 'economic growth'."<br /><br />Tom, I think you are confusing economic activity with economic growth. The problem we face is having to decarbonise activity as it stands now. Growth is making Mark Brinkleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03473684038478246288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-37119901182220706632009-12-09T17:33:09.683+00:002009-12-09T17:33:09.683+00:00"What does zero economic growth mean? It mean..."What does zero economic growth mean? It means no worn-out anything gets replaced, no obsolete inefficient anything gets modernised - because every time some item gets paid for, that's 'economic growth'.<br /><br />'Economic growth' equals 'human busy-ness' - it's what we do. I'ts been a terrible red herring, when the real point is not 'economic growthTomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10941207174792378631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-57452699488055847912009-12-09T13:35:17.497+00:002009-12-09T13:35:17.497+00:00Very eloquently put Mark.
Regarding the 'how ...Very eloquently put Mark.<br /><br />Regarding the 'how we're going to do it angle' I work for BioRegional Development Group and we've just released our 'Capital Consumption Report' which outlines the type of changes that London would need to make in order to meet its emissions targets. Might be of interest to you.<br /><br />www.bioregional.com/news-views/news/Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10941207174792378631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-19637255240608483152009-12-09T10:16:52.010+00:002009-12-09T10:16:52.010+00:00"Huge quantum leaps are on the verge of happe..."Huge quantum leaps are on the verge of happening "<br /><br />They have been since i was a little nipper, and will probably still be when i am old and wrinkled.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-13242145038173906602009-12-09T00:36:35.457+00:002009-12-09T00:36:35.457+00:00Just because economic growth (measured in money eq...Just because economic growth (measured in money equivalent) has historically run approx proportional to fossil fuel and other resource use, it doesn't follow that it will continue to do so in future.<br /><br />The 70s Limits to Growth study that's been the underlying gospel ever since, is out of date. It said that because fossil fuel and other resource use cannot continue to expand Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06796325006077141917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-64879960093615276322009-12-08T23:26:19.542+00:002009-12-08T23:26:19.542+00:00That's as maybe, but the timescales are quite ...That's as maybe, but the timescales are quite different - an ice age takes several thousand years to develop. <br /><br />I thought the consensus was that shifts in climate happen in a short period of time<br /><br />http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427344.800-mini-ice-age-took-hold-of-europe-in-months.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-46302999884291959942009-12-08T18:43:58.307+00:002009-12-08T18:43:58.307+00:00"The climate will change whether we eliminate..."The climate will change whether we eliminate man made C02 or not - it always has - and will always continue to do so."<br /><br />That's as maybe, but the timescales are quite different - an ice age takes several thousand years to develop. Here we are talking about a similar shift in climate in the other direction within 100 to 200 years if we carry on Business as Usual (with a Mark Brinkleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03473684038478246288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-14739790403528296002009-12-08T17:04:15.940+00:002009-12-08T17:04:15.940+00:00This is basically the Lomborg line. I used to thin...This is basically the Lomborg line. I used to think it was coherent, at the very least, but the more you think about it, the sillier it gets. We are going to have to adapt anyway, so what you are effectively saying is "Do nothing, everything will take care of itself." What is this vain hope based on? Hoping the science is overstated and that things won't turn out too bad after all? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-30598780476912832552009-12-08T17:02:35.256+00:002009-12-08T17:02:35.256+00:00We are going to have to adapt anyway, so what you ...We are going to have to adapt anyway, so what you are effectively saying is "Do nothing, everything will take care of itself."<br /><br />WTF? I said "spend money on adapting" how do you take that to mean "we are going to have to adapt anyway and you want us to do nothing".<br /><br />I mean, cmon?<br /><br />We can spend billions on trying to cut emmisions, cripple Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-14415495075557752242009-12-08T16:43:51.998+00:002009-12-08T16:43:51.998+00:00"Anonymous, the one thing that is common to m..."Anonymous, the one thing that is common to most sceptics (other than those who really don't care) is a failure to understand the science behind global warming... and / or the economics."<br /><br />In other words, do as Ed Miliband does.<br /><br />Don't debate the science, just call the other side dumb/fooled/etc!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-39676910971105081102009-12-08T16:38:08.853+00:002009-12-08T16:38:08.853+00:00"It would be cheaper and better to spend mone..."It would be cheaper and better to spend money on adapting to change than trying to stop it."<br /><br />This is basically the Lomborg line. I used to think it was coherent, at the very least, but the more you think about it, the sillier it gets. We are going to have to adapt anyway, so what you are effectively saying is "Do nothing, everything will take care of itself." What Mark Brinkleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03473684038478246288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-28248325524741867752009-12-08T16:23:44.368+00:002009-12-08T16:23:44.368+00:00My understanding is that we need to get the popula...My understanding is that we need to get the population of the UK down to 30 million (labour government)to achieve a sustainable future.<br /><br />Therefore the big issue is how were going to decide who lives and who dies in the UK.<br /><br />Anyone got any thoughts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14798090.post-48896010151900774472009-12-08T15:19:22.739+00:002009-12-08T15:19:22.739+00:00Anonymous, the one thing that is common to most sc...Anonymous, the one thing that is common to most sceptics (other than those who really don't care) is a failure to understand the science behind global warming... and / or the economics.<br /><br />Reading the Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change might help (though Stern himself has since said that he underestimated the risks, the likely damage and the probabilities of temperature PJnoreply@blogger.com